Maximalt proteinintag per måltid för anabolt gensvar

[King Grub]

Senaste update från världens främste expert på området, Robert Wolfe.

The anabolic response to dietary protein can be defined as the difference between protein synthesis and breakdown, or the net protein balance, in response to ingestion of protein alone or a mixed meal containing protein. Others have concluded that a maximal anabolic response can be achieved with ingestion of 20-35 g of a high quality protein, leading to the formulation of a popular concept that the maximal anabolic response can be achieved by distributing the total protein intake evenly throughout the day, rather than eating a majority of dietary protein with dinner. However, this concept was based entirely on the measurement of muscle protein synthesis and thus ignored the potential contributions of suppression of protein breakdown to the anabolic response, as well as the possibility that tissues and organs other than muscle may also play a role in the anabolic response. In this review we discuss the factors comprising the total anabolic response, discuss relevant methodological issues, derive a theoretical maximal anabolic response based on current literature values, and interpret recent papers addressing the issue of maximal anabolic response as well as meal distribution of dietary protein. We conclude that it is not likely that there is a practical limit to the maximal anabolic response to a single meal, and the most efficient way in which to maximize the total anabolic response over a 24-h period is to increase dietary protein at breakfast and lunch without reducing protein intake with dinner.

Update on Maximal Anabolic Response to Dietary Protein. Clinical Nutrition 1 June 2017.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0261561417302030

[ATJL]

Han nämner här ingenting om timmar mellan måltiderna eller muscle full effekten, är den alltså fortfarande relevant tolkar jag?

[King Grub]

Muscle full går nog bara att få med vassleprotein eller aminosyratillskott.

Han diskuterar det i texten.

However, it is uncertain if the “muscle full” hypothesis applies in the context of mixed meals. For example, it has been shown that prior meals did not alter MPS responses, implying no role for the muscle full effect. Further, we have shown that whole body net protein balance was not affected by prior meals but by the amount of protein intake in each meal. In either case, the distribution hypothesis would not be supported.

it is unlikely that further gains in lean body mass could be expected to be achieved by altering the distribution of dietary protein intake without also significantly increasing the amount of protein consumed.

[King Grub]

Han nämner också intressanta siffror för proteinnedbrytning och proteinsyntes över dygnet i fastande stadie från en av hans opublicerade studier. Dom siffrorna har inte varit kända så exakt förut.

in the fasting state whole body protein synthesis was approximately 3.5 g/kg/day, and protein breakdown was approximately 4.3 g/kg/day although not shown explicitly in the paper

[Toni Radanov]

syftar 4.3g/kg/day till kroppens totala FFM eller bara muscle mass + hud + småskräp som naglar osv?

För det skapar intressanta tankar kring hurvida man bygger på sig muskler som tex nybörjare på en allmän "no fux given" diet där man snittar tex 100g protein per dag. Anta 1.80 lång och 75kg snubbe då.... "normalsmal". (Mångom antaganden men är ju realistisk utgångspunkt för average joe som börjar på gym och växer på sig under ett år, om än bara en del)

[Fysikalisk]

Tyvärr inte tillgång till den uppdaterade.

Görs det distinktioner mellan hela kroppens proteinsyntes och enbart mps i diskussionen (vad gäller nedbrytning/fördelning av proteinintag osv)? Vad kommer de fram till då isf?

[King Grub]

http://docdro.id/hQ8jBEX

[Waimea]

Vad innebär detta i praktiken?

[Fysikalisk]

http://docdro.id/hQ8jBEX

Tackar!

[Wipflash]

Vad innebär detta i praktiken?
Ät mer protein.

[Fysikalisk]

Vad innebär detta i praktiken?

Trots att mps inte verkar stimuleras mer vid intag högre än 20-40g protein per måltid så verkar det anabola gensvaret bli högre vid ett större intag iaf. Ffa pga hämmande effekt på proteinnedbrytning. De refererar dock främst till hela kroppens proteinsyntes/-nedbrytning.

Ett jämnt fördelat proteinintag över dagen skulle då inte ha några större fördelar gentemot färre och större intag.

[AlexGBG]

Är dubbelt radavstånd gällande praxis i såna här publikationer?
Ska försöka traggla mig igenom denna, radavståndet till trots.

[Sohlsken]

Är dubbelt radavstånd gällande praxis i såna här publikationer?
Ska försöka traggla mig igenom denna, radavståndet till trots.

Ja. Dubbelt radavstånd är praxis för MLA och APA. Minns inte om det även är gäller Chicago, för jag hatar Chicago. Detta verkar vara skrivet i APA-format.

[kaspen]

Jorn Trommelen skrev ett grymt inlägg som relaterar till det här. Jag citerar;

"The key part there is ''whole-body''. This is a measurement of protein breakdown in all proteins in the body and not specific to muscle. Most people don't recognize this difference but it's crucial (do you even science methodology bro?). You should absolutely not translate whole-body protein breakdown data to the muscle.

In fact, basically anytime you're not fasted, you'll have slowed down muscle protein breakdown rates as much as possible (so both whey and casein would have the same effect).

Two related links with more info:

Whole-body vs muscle protein synthesis:
http://www.nutritiontactics.com/measure-muscle-protein-synthesis/#41_Whole-body_protein_synthesis_vs_muscle_protein_synthesis

Why muscle protein breakdown is of less importance
http://www.nutritiontactics.com/measure-muscle-protein-synthesis/#2_Why_muscle_protein_breakdown_is_of_less_importa nce

The OG whey vs casein study:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9405716

Please help me out by sharing this so I don't have to bust another protein myth tomorrow based on the same misunderstanding! (whole-body data mistaken as muscle data)"

[King Grub]

Wolfe diskuterar kopplingen mellan whole body protein synthesis och muscle protein synthesis i artikeln.

[Fysikalisk]

Bland annat denna koppling.

”Consumption of dietary protein stimulates MPS within an hour. In addition, a significant portion of the amino acids absorbed from the meal will be retained in the splanchnic area, mainly in the gut. The retention of amino acids in the gut may be amplified by a systemic insulin response ta a mixed meal.

Over time EAAs released from protein breakdown in the rapidly turning over gut tissues can be released into peripheral blood and then be incorporated into new proteins in muscle.”

[kaspen]

Wolfe diskuterar kopplingen mellan whole body protein synthesis och muscle protein synthesis i artikeln.

Jag tycker att Wolfe är en vassare forskare men att Trommelen är en tydligare kommunikatör.

[Termy]

En till trevlig artikel inom ämnet:

Jäger R, Kerksick CM, Campbell BI, et al. International Society of Sports Nutrition Position Stand: protein and exercise. Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition. 2017;14:20. doi:10.1186/s12970-017-0177-8. Fulltext (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5477153/)

Deras sammanfattade rekommendationer:

"The International Society of Sports Nutrition (ISSN) provides an objective and critical review related to the intake of protein for healthy, exercising individuals. Based on the current available literature, the position of the Society is as follows:

An acute exercise stimulus, particularly resistance exercise, and protein ingestion both stimulate muscle protein synthesis (MPS) and are synergistic when protein consumption occurs before or after resistance exercise.
For building muscle mass and for maintaining muscle mass through a positive muscle protein balance, an overall daily protein intake in the range of 1.4–2.0 g protein/kg body weight/day (g/kg/d) is sufficient for most exercising individuals, a value that falls in line within the Acceptable Macronutrient Distribution Range published by the Institute of Medicine for protein.
Higher protein intakes (2.3–3.1 g/kg/d) may be needed to maximize the retention of lean body mass in resistance-trained subjects during hypocaloric periods.
There is novel evidence that suggests higher protein intakes (>3.0 g/kg/d) may have positive effects on body composition in resistance-trained individuals (i.e., promote loss of fat mass).
Recommendations regarding the optimal protein intake per serving for athletes to maximize MPS are mixed and are dependent upon age and recent resistance exercise stimuli. General recommendations are 0.25 g of a high-quality protein per kg of body weight, or an absolute dose of 20–40 g.
Acute protein doses should strive to contain 700–3000 mg of leucine and/or a higher relative leucine content, in addition to a balanced array of the essential amino acids (EAAs).
These protein doses should ideally be evenly distributed, every 3–4 h, across the day.
The optimal time period during which to ingest protein is likely a matter of individual tolerance, since benefits are derived from pre- or post-workout ingestion; however, the anabolic effect of exercise is long-lasting (at least 24 h), but likely diminishes with increasing time post-exercise.
While it is possible for physically active individuals to obtain their daily protein requirements through the consumption of whole foods, supplementation is a practical way of ensuring intake of adequate protein quality and quantity, while minimizing caloric intake, particularly for athletes who typically complete high volumes of training.
Rapidly digested proteins that contain high proportions of essential amino acids (EAAs) and adequate leucine, are most effective in stimulating MPS.
Different types and quality of protein can affect amino acid bioavailability following protein supplementation.
Athletes should consider focusing on whole food sources of protein that contain all of the EAAs (i.e., it is the EAAs that are required to stimulate MPS).
Endurance athletes should focus on achieving adequate carbohydrate intake to promote optimal performance; the addition of protein may help to offset muscle damage and promote recovery.
Pre-sleep casein protein intake (30–40 g) provides increases in overnight MPS and metabolic rate without influencing lipolysis.

[AlexGBG]

Så mitt beslut att ligga på 2,8g/kg kv, ta 1,5 skopa kasein innan sänggående, en shake direkt efter träningen och en mellan lunch och middag är nog rätt bra då.

Om jag förstår saken rätt så kan det eventuellt vara positivt att öka på intaget ännu mer till över 3g/kg kv vilket lätt löses med en extra shake per dag

[Termy]

Trommelen skrev ett ytterligare inlägg (https://www.facebook.com/nutritiontactics/posts/1952846794930261) om studien i trådstarten här.

Copy pasted:
"A new review article discusses whether there is a maximal anabolic threshold to dietary protein.

TDLR:
- I disagree with most points in this review
- bottom of this post has better recommendations and references to read on protein intake.

Summary or review:

1) It is often recommended that 20-25 g protein nearly maximizes the muscle protein synthetic response to a meal

2) The authors suggest that in addition to effects on muscle protein synthesis, effects on muscle protein breakdown or whole-protein breakdown should be taken into account

3) The authors suggest that increasing doses of protein will augment greater reductions in (muscle) protein breakdown.

4) The authors suggest that mixed meals may result in a greater anabolic response compared to isolated protein, because insulin may reduce muscle protein breakdown

5) The authors suggest protein distribution does not matter much

I disagree with most points in this review.

Regarding point 1)
I agree with those recommendations, but keep in mind that 40 g protein typically gives a 10-20% higher MPS response and may be especially important following whole-body resistance exercise and before sleep (1, 2).

Regarding point 2, 3 and 4)
I agree with the authors that the total anabolic response is what matters. In the case of the muscle that is the muscle protein balance (synthesis minus breakdown). However, changes in protein balance are largely driven by changes in muscle protein synthesis, as protein breakdown doesn't change much and is very predictable in most conditions in athletes. Measuring it is a waste of valuable research money in many situations.

The amount of protein recommended to optimize muscle protein synthesis (20-40 g) is also enough to also minimize muscle protein breakdown. The effect of protein on muscle protein breakdown is in fact due to insulin, and you don't need that much insulin to minimize muscle protein breakdown (3). Protein alone is enough, no need for extra carbs/mixed meals to minimize muscle protein breakdown (4). Insulin/carbs are also not needed for muscle protein synthesis.

The authors suggest that WHOLE-BODY protein breakdown will be reduced further with greater doses of protein. Key words there are WHOLE-BODY. This is a measurement that is not specific to the muscle and is more reflective of what is happening in gut tissues. I know whole-body protein may sound even more important than a measurement that just looks at the muscle, but it in the opposite (unless you want to grow gut tissue?). A simple example to show that whole-body protein metabolism and muscle protein synthesis should not be confused: resistance exercise stimulates muscle protein synthesis, but not whole-body protein synthesis (5).

The authors did a study in which WHOLE-BODY protein breakdown was reduced further with 70 g protein in a meal compared to 40 g (6). Again, this does not mean it is helpful for the muscle! It does not even mean it's helpful for other tissues, we have no idea if a greater protein balance in gut tissues is even beneficial. Moreover, the methodology of that paper is questionable. Our lab gets completely opposite results with better methodology.

So the arguments of the authors that higher doses of protein might be beneficial are very questionable. There is no data that doses higher than 30 g protein would beneficial for muscle protein breakdown, and all evidence suggests that it likely would not be. Making protein recommendations for muscle mass gains/maintenance based on WHOLE-BODY protein metabolism data is also very questionable, especially since it's largely based on the results of a specific study which itself is questionable.

Regarding point 5:
I do think there is some value to protein distribution, though total daily protein intake is definitely a higher priority.

I don't have a major issue with people seeing little to no benefit in protein distribution, there is no super-compelling evidence that you leave massive amounts of gains on the table if you don't pay attention to it (though I think it's pretty simple to do? But that's up to the individual)

What I do take issue with is that they seem quite biased. For example, they wrote:

''In a recent acute metabolic study we did not observed any beneficial effects of distributing the same amount of dietary protein equally over three daily meals as compared to the normal American pattern of 65% of dietary protein with dinner as evaluated by measurement of whole body protein synthesis and breakdown as well as MPS [18]. The lack of impact of distribution of dietary protein was evident at two levels of dietary protein intake.''

When you actually look at the data from that study (see picture attached), it appears that the even protein distribution did better than the uneven protein. The effect was not statistically significant, but that most likely has to do with the study being underpowered since the exact same positive effect was found in both the lower and higher protein diet. If you would compare the evenly distributed low protein intake with the uneven distributed high protein intake, there would also be no significant difference. So you could argue that improving the distribution is as effective as doubling the amount of protein (again, this is a statistical issue). If anything, I would consider that study evidence for protein distribution. Taking the more conservative approach is fine of course. But in that case, it is inconsistent that the authors are conservative in this area, but are extremely aggressive about making protein recommendations on whole-body data?

Unfortunately, I have to admit I don't like this review. The last time these authors wrote a similar review, it was posted a lot on social media by bro's as 'SEE MORE PROTEIN!!!!!!!'. Please don't be a bro. And while I love protein, this particular review is not the reason why protein is awesome or a good reason to eat loads of it (but I still recommend to eat loads of it 😉

The authors of this review will come visit our lab next month, so we have some discussion points!

Review:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28807333

-----------------------------------------------------------

If you just want some simple protein recommendations, a good evidence-based starting point would be the 1.6 g/kg/d suggested maximizing muscle hypertrophy in a recent meta-analysis - and perhaps up to 2.2 g/kg/d to take a safety margin (7).

Want to know more about protein metabolism, but get confused by all the methodology or can't get all the papers? Start here:
http://www.nutritiontactics.com/measure-muscle-protein-syn…/

References:
1) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27511985
2) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27916799
3) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18577697
4) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21131864
5) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27643743
6) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=26530155
7) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28698222
"

[Termy]

Trommelen et als senaste alster:
The Muscle Protein Synthetic Response to Meal Ingestion Following Resistance-Type Exercise

https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2Fs40279-019-01053-5.pdf

[Bossebäver]

Jag skulle sitta still i båten och vänta på analysen fråb grabbarna på styrkast.se, detta då dessa är en av de internationellt erkända experterna på inte bara allt träningrelaterat och kosttilskott utan även protein.

[TotteShaped4Life]

Jag skulle sitta still i båten och vänta på analysen fråb grabbarna på styrkast.se, detta då dessa är en av de internationellt erkända experterna på inte bara allt träningrelaterat och kosttilskott utan även protein.
Nu snackar vi inte gradskillnad utan en helt nivå juh

[Ett Orm]

Jag skulle sitta still i båten och vänta på analysen fråb grabbarna på styrkast.se, detta då dessa är en av de internationellt erkända experterna på inte bara allt träningrelaterat och kosttilskott utan även protein.

Tror de i sin tur väntar på en artikel från styrkelabbet. Sen kommer de att veva lös med suedisarna på nätet.

[exevision]

Jag skulle sitta still i båten och vänta på analysen fråb grabbarna på styrkast.se, detta då dessa är en av de internationellt erkända experterna på inte bara allt träningrelaterat och kosttilskott utan även protein.

Jag skrattade lite väl mycket. :D
Var tvungen att läsa deras tråd igen.