Rahf är lat och behöver hjälp

[Rahf]

Återigen är jag här med rop om hjälp! :D

Har en lågkolhydratnisse som jag tjafsar med väldigt mycket på ett annat forum.

En tråd dök upp gällande morgonaktiviteter i fastande tillstånd och jag slog fast att kroppens tillfälliga katabola läge i fastande tillstånd inte spelade roll i längden eftersom man ska se till hela dygnet. Han kontrade med följande:

Rahf, what makes you think that will happen?

Does the same happen with other tissues, like fat? Will body composition then remain inevitably constant while eating at energy balance?

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I really think your perception of "energy balance" and its importance could do with an overhaul. The concept of calories-in vs. calories-out is a nice idea for beginners to think about, but really its all backwards. There's never a set point at which one will change from net bodyweight loss to gain, its subject to enormous variation day-to-do according to all the kinds of factors you might expect. And huge variations in partitioning are seen according to nutrition and its timing, hormonal status, etc. As such, any attempt to attribute body composition changes simply to a calorie deficit/surplus is a bit of an ad hoc fallacy, slapping the label of "energy balance!!" onto what already happened for a host of other biochemical reasons, and reverse-defining the point of energy balance (and the start of fat loss, for example) according to what we saw happen.

The idea of calories-in vs. calories-out seems to assume the body is a completely static system apart from those two components.

I always have trouble explaining why the whole thing doesn't make sense, and I doubt I've got my thoughts accross usefully here, either.

Hur svarar man, med tillhörande bevis och på smidigast möjliga vis, så att han fattar? Problemet är att folk kommer svälja hans argument ifall jag icke svarar och det vägrar jag gå med på :banned

Sökfunktionen har använts flitigt men hjälp sökes ändock.

[Torsk_ole]

Vissa studier där de visar att kalori in vs kalori ut gäller. King grub har lagt upp en eller flera sådana. Be han sedan vissa en enda studie där de mäter hur mycket kalorier man äter jämfört med hur många man gör av med. I en sådan studie så ska ett överskott resultera i viktnedgång och ett underskott i viktuppgång. Han kommer säkert visa studier där intaget inte är riktigt mät eller hur mycket kalorier deltagarna gjort av med. Det kan bli tufft för honom.

[King Grub]

I en sådan studie så ska ett överskott resultera i viktnedgång och ett underskott i viktuppgång. Han kommer säkert visa studier där intaget inte är riktigt mät eller hur mycket kalorier deltagarna gjort av med. Det kan bli tufft för honom.

Vad pratar du om? Det där var helt osammanhängande.

[Torsk_ole]

Vad pratar du om? Det där var helt osammanhängande.

Jag menar att om teorin kalori in vs kalori ut inte stämmer så borde det finnas studier som visar det. Stämmer teorin så borde det finnas studier som visar det. Tappade bort mig lite när jag skrev.

[King Grub]

"Problemet" är väl att fördelningen av fett, kolhydrat och protein som nybildas/förbrukas vid överskott/underskott är individuell och kostar olika mycket energi. Dessutom spelar individuell TEF, oxidativ potential i skelettmuskulaturen och hormonell påverkan roll. Ett visst underskott kommer absolut inte att resultera i lika stor viktnedgång hos två olika invider, eller hos samma individ vid olika tidpunkter med olika status. Alla ovanstående faktorer är delar av kalori in/kalori ut och säger inte emot den saken alls, men slutresultatet i form av viktminskningens storlek och hur stor del av denna som består av fettvävnad är högst individuell, också just pga dessa faktorer.

[Rahf]

Saken är den att trådskaparen är en fjortonårig kille som tycker att han är smalfet. Jag skrev helt enkelt att han inte ska fokusera på någon viktnedgång utan "äta mat och njuta av livet" i korta ordalag, energibalans var det jag menade.

Medan konversationerna fortlöpte så dök det upp en kommentar där en medlem påstod att han skulle gå ut på morgonpromenader eftersom det skulle stimulera fettförbränning, jag drog det vanliga snacket om att inget händer vid energibalans och då bröt helvetet lös.

Och där är vi nu, han är lite som vissa lågkolhydratsnissar på detta forum, hävdar sina egna vilda teorier om hur kroppsmassa förändras.

[King Grub]

It is well established that the metabolic substrate pool for energy
production during exercise when fed carbohydrates is shifted from fat to
carbohydrates. The magnitude of the shift towards increased carbohydrate oxidation versus decreased fat oxidation is highly dependent on the timing of the carbohydrate intake. In this respect, it has been shown that
pre-exercise carbohydrate ingestion limits fat oxidation through both inhibition
of peripheral lipolysis and inhibition of intramuscular fat oxidation, whereas
glucose intake during exercise only marginally blunts peripheral lipolysis
without affecting total fat oxidation.

It has thus been argued that the presence of a high insulin
concentration already at the onset of exercise is of major importance in
promoting decreased rates of fat oxidation.


Carbohydrate intake before and during endurance exercise is a standard
‘ergogenic’ procedure. Still, the vast majority of literature studies that have looked at muscle metabolism in endurance exercise, have used the fasted state as the ‘standard’ dietary condition, while in fact the carbohydrate-fed state is recommended as the optimal nutritional state for endurance exercise.

Thus, it was the primary aim of this dissertation to evaluate the acute and short term metabolic properties of exercise in the fasted (F) versus carbohydrate fed (CHO) state. In addition, the effect of acute metabolic
state and training on intramyocellular lipid (IMCL) content will be
specificially highlighted. Indeed, IMCL have been shown to be involved in the pathogenesis of peripheral insulin resistance. The development of exercise
strategies that increase IMCL breakdown can therefore increase the effect of
non-pharmacological strategies on insulin sensitivity.

In the first study, the acute effect of exercise in the fasted state versus exercise with carbohydrate intake was evaluated. We could show that IMCL breakdown during prolonged submaximal exercise in the fasted state takes place in type I fibres predominantly. Furthermore, IMCL breakdown
during exercise was prevented in the carbohydrate-fed state. In addition, the
combination of both glucose intake both before and during exercise decreased
glycogen breakdown in type IIa fibres. Exercise in the fasting state enhances the post-exercise insulin response to glucose ingestion which in turn likely contributes to stimulation of post exercise muscle glycogen resynthesis. Finally, carbohydrate ingestion, either before, during or after exercise is a potent inhibitor of the exercise-induced increase in metabolic gene expression.
Thus, exercise in the fasted state stimulates fat oxidation and glycogen breakdown when compared with exercise after the intake of a breakfast and with additional carbohydrate intake.

It was however unclear whether exercise in the fasted state could affect training adaptations. Therefore, a second study investigated the effect of a short-term endurance training period (6 weeks, 3 days/week, 1-2 h, 75% VO2peak) in the fasted state or with carbohydrate intake on training adaptations and substrate utilisation during a standardised exercise bout with carbohydrate intake. Regular exercise in the fasted state did not affect the increase in exercise capacity. Training adaptations in muscle (enzyme
activity, GLUT4, HKII, UCP3) were basically similar between both experimental
conditions. However, gene expression, as measured via mRNA content, was markedly different between groups. Training did not affect IMCL content whereas glycogen content increased after training with carbohydrate intake but not after training in the fasted state. During exercise, fat oxidation rates nor IMCL breakdown was influenced by training. On the opposite, regular
exercise in the fasted state decreased glycogen breakdown versus an increase in blood glucose oxidation.

Althougha decrease in glycogen breakdown after exercise in the fasted state can have major implications on performance, we could not show major differences in overall training adaptations.

De Bock, Katrien / K.U.Leuven. Faculteit Bewegings- en revalidatiewetenschappen. Deptartement Biomedische kinesiologie /
Metabolic adaptations to exercise in the fasted state.
2007.

[Torsk_ole]

Jag missförstod nog texten, sorry:smash: